Transforming Your Career after 50 with Career Coach Agnes Trinh Mackintosh [Ep 37]

In this special episode of Midlife Mojo, host Lisa DuPree welcomes career coach Agnes Trinh Mackintosh, a certified professional coach and founder of Career Rescripted to discuss the unique challenges and opportunities of navigating career changes in your 40s and 50s. Agnes shares insights from her own experiences, strategies for gaining clarity during transitions, and the importance of aligning career moves with core values. They also delve into the impact of identity and overcoming limiting beliefs, while providing practical tips for making purposeful career shifts. Tune in for an empowering conversation filled with wisdom and actionable advice for midlife career success.

Free curated career resources mentioned in the episode. 

To find out more or to work with Agnes, visit Career Rescripted.   

Episode Highlights
01:30 Challenges in Midlife Career Transitions
04:02 Finding Clarity and Overcoming Overwhelm
06:15 Identity and Career Transitions
09:37 Strategies for Career Transitions
13:50 Aligning Career Changes with Core Values
24:13 Taking Action and Managing Change
36:25 Curated Resources and Final Thoughts

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Lisa DuPree: Hello. Hello. Welcome back to Midlife Mojo. Today, I am thrilled to be joined by Agnes Trinh Mackintosh. She's a certified professional coach and founder of career rescripted. She specializes in helping individuals release their true potential and discover their next role, especially during pivotal career transitions.

[00:00:19] Agnes’ superpower is that she's a connector of people, ideas and resources. Today, we're going to be discussing the unique challenges and opportunities that come with navigating career changes in your forties and fifties and strategies for achieving success during these transitions. Welcome to the show, Agnes.

[00:00:37] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: Thank you, Lisa. Thank you for the warm welcome. Hello, everybody. I'm excited to be here today and have this great conversation with my friend, Lisa. Yeah. And just a little bit more about myself because it really does tell you a story about why I got into career coaching.

[00:00:53] So as Lisa mentioned I am a professional Certified professional coach. I have a master's in public health and I'm a first gen college and graduate student. My family came here from Vietnam when I was very young. And I also have two Gen Zers. They're 20 and 22. So if I refer to my kids, that's how old they are. I am living the midlife, career stage everything that we're going to talk about today.

[00:01:22] Lisa DuPree: Wonderful. Wonderful. Yes. Excited to have you here and hear from you. So I just want to dive right in. What, from your perspective is one of the biggest challenges that clients face when they're transitioning careers or pivoting in their career in their forties and fifties.

[00:01:42] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: Okay. First, I think when people reach out to me, Lisa, they have been thinking about career transition for about six months or maybe up to like two years. And so I think right away, they want to get to the tangible. They want to get to the resume review, they want to get to the, interview prep, they want to do the job search strategy, all the things that because they're tactical things and easy, they'll see it, there's an outcome.

[00:02:11] But really, I think with over my 1000 coaching sessions I've had with people, I call it starting up. Slowing down and everything in between which everything in between is switching careers. I think what happens is they are really asking about clarity, right? Like they, they come and they say they're overwhelmed.

[00:02:33] They feel stuck. We feel like they're not learning and growing. And part of it of our sessions are spent on what does clarity look like? What does career transition? What, how do we define that? I even start asking by like, what is your timeline for change? Because these are just Sort of insightful questions, hopefully to get them started thinking about like their career a little bit more holistically, not just to the, I'm stuck.

[00:03:00] How can you help me face, you know? But it's also, you have to think about it, like how big is the career transition they're talking about? Is it a sector switch? Is it from industry? Or is it just like a small little tweak? Or are they applying to like leadership roles or something within their organization?

[00:03:19] The other thing is sometimes they come because something happened, like a tipping point. Um, and it, is it something that was by choice that they're making this transition? Or is it, they were laid off or maybe something in their life has changed. Maybe they are recently divorced. Maybe they are now their primary breadwinner, which I think we have to rethink that term.

[00:03:43] Lisa, I don't know how we get that bread, but no, seriously it's about that. And then kind of just at a phase where they're just. re evaluating what meaning and value. And how do they contribute their work and thinking about the work a little bit more broadly. Yeah.

[00:04:02] Lisa DuPree: absolutely. I love that you start mentioning clarity too, because it is, it's about, okay, what are the things that I can do? And. And being able to get back and have, sit back and have that clarity, talk with the coach, have somebody like specifically guide you through, like, what does that mean?

[00:04:19] What do I want? What do I really want the outcome to be like? What's the value of it? What is important to me? How do I get clear on it? Cause there, there's a lot of options out there, but also sometimes it feels like there's no option. So it's kind of crazy, for me being in the same.

[00:04:35] The same area in academia for 17 years, being in the same job position for about 15, I really was, I had my blinders on. I only knew what I knew. And so it was really, it was, that was something, I felt overwhelmed. And lack of clarity and stuck all at the same time. So like being able to talk with a coach and that has a different perspective and they comes from, what's happening in the world now can really be, I think very beneficial.

[00:05:06] And instead of just going in and redoing your resume, right? But you need to, probably going to need to your resume 40 50. Like I looked at my and I was like, Oh no, no, no. We're have to this. But yeah.

[00:05:20] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: Lisa, it's all the things above, right? And I always say, take a multi pronged approach for when you're at a pivotal point in your life. And going back to what you said, Lisa, the world in which we started our work doesn't look the same. When you started in higher education, the student experience was so much different.

[00:05:40] And now there's a lot of more parental involvement, just, it just didn't look the same. And then I have to tell you, I work with a lot of my clients in the healthcare industry. And sometimes that comes with, frontline work and burnout. And so for them, I've worked with someone this past year where she's like, Agnes, some days I feel like I could do this work for another 20 years.

[00:06:06] And then she said, and other days, I feel like I can't do it for another 20 minutes. Right. And I think that's part of the overwhelm and feeling like all over the place. Because if you think about how much we can over identify with our careers and not just our careers, but in our role, we take points of pride in what we do and our accomplishments, our successes, whether they're like ladder like accomplishments.

[00:06:32] Or whether they're, more collaborative things, too. But so, you have also a point of shifting identities. And it's not just from work, but it's also in your life. Maybe you're an empty nester now, which is my case, right? Or I like to say free bird. Because Uyen, means a type of free bird. So then you have that.

[00:06:55] And so for the first time in your life, it might be the time where you actually can put yourself first. So it's just all these things coming at you at once and really it's giving yourself permission. To do that too, and Lisa, I have to tell you when you also said when you asked me about the challenges, my first thought was, I at your inner critic, because you're in a critic can be so loud.

[00:07:19] Right. And we have all these limiting beliefs going back to what you said about. It's it seems like very counterintuitive that at this time, you feel like you have less options, but at some, but some of that is you're limiting beliefs and not allowing yourself to explore, or even think about other options because we are people pleasers at heart and we're high achievers.

[00:07:44] We've also, like you said, we might have been just been exposed to certain pathways. Either by our upbringing culture, just as I shared, I'm first gen college and graduate student, there were certain career paths that I didn't even know existed, you know?

[00:08:02] Lisa DuPree: absolutely. Yes. It's very interesting. All the things that come up around identity that's tied to your career or your, And we've been entrenched in that when we're in our 40s and 50s, we've usually worked, a few decades at this point. Yeah, so you mentioned the identity, you mentioned, the thinking about those beliefs about what's out there? What are some other ways that career transitions might differ significantly from people who are in their early career or mid twenties?

[00:08:34] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: Yeah. That's a really good question, . And first of all, Lisa, I could tell you we have so many mixed messages in the career space. We, when I think about it, when I see, I mean, this is my, I call it my professional hazard, keeping up with what's going on, but you've got messages from people in academia, like career practitioners.

[00:08:55] You have people who are professors in business schools. You have a lot of lawyers. Very interestingly, former lawyers writing about career transitions, you have therapists talking about I just read a book called job therapy by Tessa West and thinking about your career more like relationship and how they change everything.

[00:09:15] So that's very interesting. And then you also have Everybody, TikTok people, influencers, Instagram, your mom and dad, everybody that's in the space that of course wants to be helpful to you. But just even wading through all the information, what are the best practices? What should I be doing? What are good strategies?

[00:09:37] I think that is one thing that is just applicable to all career stages, right? But I think when you are first starting off, you're at a discovery phase. Someone who I'd like to follow Scott Galloway, he's a NYU business professor.

[00:09:53] He does has some books out like the Algebra of Wealth, Algebra of Happiness. And interesting enough, my husband and I both like him and we have very different interests in reading material, but he also he has a podcast called Pivot, which he does with Paris Wisher. And basically he's saying in your 20s.

[00:10:12] It's for workshopping your career. He says, in your thirties and forties, in your thirties is actually getting a good in your field. And your forties and fifties are for harvesting. So reaping what you if you think about it that way, and it's all fine and great if you did that linear path, and felt that way.

[00:10:31] But part of my career story, I took a decade detour when my kids were younger. I had been back in the workforce for the past 12 years. And really when I think about it, you can feel very like off schedule if you didn't follow that. Certain pathway. And when you're in your twenties, I would say one of the things is like that catch 22, Lisa. And I think about this for our kids. You need experience to get experience, so they're discovering that, they're trying on things. The statistic for them, Lisa, is that they might have nine different roles before they're 35.

[00:11:07] They have might have five to seven different pathways. On average, maybe four years in a row and maybe 12 different roles in their lifetime, so it's overwhelming when you think about it in one way, it's liberty and you're like, you can try all different things. It doesn't matter if you make a mistake.

[00:11:23] You don't have to get your dream job straight out, which all of them want to do, of course. But, for someone who is midlife, I feel like, your timeline is more compressed. And so I think a lot of people think they don't have the luxury to start over again for either financial reasons or just when they think about what they've already done in their life.

[00:11:44] Right. And so I think it's just shifting my mindset of what's possible and like going back to that, if they feel like they're burnt out in their role, Lisa I read somewhere where, One was saying, do you really have 20 years of experience, or do you have one year of experience 20 times repeated. So,

[00:12:05] Lisa DuPree: That's a good one.

[00:12:07] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: it's a little bit of that too, so what we do have in common with someone starting off in their career I think you have to do. Be patient with yourself. Allow yourself to be at the discovery phase. Spend some time finding out that clarity for your next career phase. And then also, giving yourself permission to do that.

[00:12:27] And then also, we both at different parts of our careers have to reframe what you want to do. And not only reframe it, but then it's partly how do you tell your story? Your compelling story for those opportunities, when you're sharing with somebody, why are you making this change right now.

[00:12:47] Lisa DuPree: Mm-Hmm. . . I think that clarity, I think comes back into it with that as well that you can figure out what is what are those compelling reasons for you and then being able to communicate it because I like what you say, like in your 40s and your 50s, if you've taken that linear progression, You are at a point where this is about reaping what I've sown for the past two decades.

[00:13:10] But what happens when you are, you're just going to uproot and go to a completely different field, right? And so thinking about getting that clarity, what is the. The outcome and then being able to communicate that I think is definitely something that that, yeah, I think in your, in your twenties and thirties, there's not that much of an expectation for that.

[00:13:32] It's more like, Hey, where do you want to go? What do you want to do? It's all, opportunity, exciting and that kind of Yeah, that really speaks to how important it is to align what you're doing in your life. For your health and well being and also for your financial well being and wellness.

[00:13:50] What have you found is really important about aligning a transition or a change in midlife to somebody's core values or their purpose?

[00:14:02] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: yeah that's really good question, Lisa and also just to throw a little bit of like perspective in there. I would say, on average, if you're like, Switching sectors all together. It might take on average three years or the average age of an entrepreneur is 43, and so if you think about it that way, you really have to really get clear on why you are making this move.

[00:14:29] What's your timeline for change? And then also, Thinking about all the factors that go into it, which goes back to your values and purpose. And for me, when I think about purpose, it's intention, right? Another word for purpose and intention. And a lot of times when my coaches come, they feel like, I just, I feel like I just stumbled on my career.

[00:14:52] And a lot of it was expectations, external expectations of what you saw around you. Or from your parents or, just, this is what I knew. This is what I was exposed to. Whereas you didn't really either didn't feel like in your culture, you could explore other things that were not stable and predictable and structured and I think part of that plays into it. And you're also catching me Lisa on the other side of 50. I just turned 51 this past weekend.

[00:15:26] Lisa DuPree: I Happy birthday!

[00:15:28] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: I'm in a very reflective phase now. And I think about fulfillment, meaning, values. And I also think about success in a different way. Contentment too.

[00:15:41] When I think about Jonathan Rauch's, happiness curve, which of course it goes like in your 20s. When you graduate, you're at the top of the world. The world is your oyster. You can do so much, right? And then it kind of does a little bit like this, but it goes, dips down like this. And then into your 40s is the area when all your friends, start, commiserating on things about life and work.

[00:16:04] And then on the other side, which I'm hopefully on the other side, going up from your fifties. And part of that is managing your expectations, right? And part of it is, I think when I think about it in like a Western Eastern philosophy to Lisa, where, and I think you've heard me talk about this, where I say, we're conditioned to do this from school with achievement and meritocracy and everything you, it's like you are chasing like striving for status for title for everything that you know the American dream and in the world tells you it's successful, right. All the trappings of success. And then on the other side is there's a Eastern philosophy where it's like, you are already fully formed and you're just chipping away about, and to reconnecting to who you are.

[00:16:55] So when you think about it that way, another way you can look at it is. On one side, it's addition. You keep adding and adding, and you have to ask yourself, like, when is enough, are we there yet? If you think about it and then, and the other side, going back to the word editing, which is my word for this year is about subtracting.

[00:17:16] Kind of distilling, getting rid of all the noise and the overwhelm to really going back to. What brings meaning to your life? Like how you want to show up in the world? What are the problems you want to solve in your community? Or, what brings you. Meaning in the daily work that you do and part of the foment to, Marcus Buckingham, who's like the guru of the StrengthsFinder guru and the Gallup and Clifton Strengths Finder psychometric test.

[00:17:46] He talks about how for job satisfaction, you need like 15 or 20 percent like variety in your career. So even if it's just a little tweak like that you don't have to start from scratch. And I think that's what people feel overwhelmed, like going back to the overwhelm, they think Oh my gosh, things can't go on like they have been like, it's not sustainable.

[00:18:09] But when I think about starting from scratch, it is ah, like, You don't have the time or energy so in all that is actually another thing that I work with my clients about doing an audit of your like time and energy. Where do you want to in the life that we are given? Where do you want to put your time and energy?

[00:18:31] Lisa DuPree: Yeah, I know with coaching, because I coach women in their 50s around health and wellness, but invariably, every coaching client that I have had it always comes back to time and energy, and that is really directly related to their job.

[00:18:50] And what does that, like their responsibilities in general, and then their job responsibilities and where they are in there, how they feel about that, because a lot of times, they're not able to make a sustainable lifestyle change because of being really drained or preoccupied or prioritizing a job that no longer fits them.

[00:19:11] And it's just a grind. It takes all of their time and mental energy to just do the thing every day to get up. And go to work and stay at the job. And so a lot of times, even though I'm not a career coach, we actually talk about those small things that you can do within where you are and then look at the bigger picture, like, how do you really want your lifestyle to be?

[00:19:34] Do you want your lifestyle to look like it does right now for, the next five, 10 years? And invariably. If they've come to coaching to change something about their health or their well being, that answer is no, I don't. I'm ready for a change. But yeah, it's like those small things like, how can you edit?

[00:19:54] How, instead of, like completely throwing everything away, packing up all your crops and moving to a whole different down, across town, right? It's like, how you just get the weeds out of where I am Create some space for what I want to do that's gonna, bring me more value, bring me more, meaning, how can I do those things intentionally?

[00:20:16] Love it.

[00:20:24] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: autopilot, and sometimes like that tipping point, maybe your health is, there's an adverse health effect because of the stress from your work. I worked recently with someone where she, she had, as we do have that role creep, work creep that, it's sometimes we have control because that sometimes that's a boundary thing, but then sometimes it's, a systematic thing.

[00:20:50] thing in your organization. And so you have to ask yourself is that worth it? I like to ask my clients, what's your litmus test? For me, if I feel like I'm doing meaningful, impactful work, I'm making a difference in my clients lives. I love to partner with them, but that outweighs the other, what I call political shenanigans, Lisa, I will say, and I will keep doing what I'm doing.

[00:21:14] But when this starts creeping up, I have to really kind of go back to the, cable and ask myself these questions. And the other thing is like, what would be like game changers for you? If your career would look different. What would be part of that? And that goes back to your values

[00:21:32] and then breaking it down. Cause it's like going back to the Oberon can seem so overwhelming. Like I know you're a goals person, Lisa, and I know you like your five and 10 year goals. And I heard your last episode. And I know that was where you're at right now too. Right. But, and I think what happens is, people will come and say, I just don't know where to start. And so I feel like I'm all over the place. I'm like, well, let's talk about that and let's refocus. And like even small steps, like Lisa, I call them the three eyes. What can you do for more inspiration, insight and information.

[00:22:07] Right. And then I would add another eye. Intentionally going through these and I think one of the important things that you could do for yourself is surround yourself with supportive people. You are part of my support squad. You've heard me talk about this before, Lisa. It's like people you can be accountable for, but they're like your biggest fans.

[00:22:28] And the thing is this. They also hold a mirror up to you so that you are, you know, do you have some perspective checking but so they elevate you, but they at the same time also help you be grounded, right? Especially at this time with that time and energy, like at the end of the day, that's the last thing you want to do, right?

[00:22:48] Look, do an overhaul for your career, right? But if you intentionally put yourself first and 15 minutes a day, 20 minutes a day. Put it on your calendar. What are one things? Who can I reach out today? You know, it's partly of that multi prong approach. I always suggest doing like a, I call them your scers audit.

[00:23:10] Lisa, it's, Your skills, your knowledge, your experiences, your relationships, and your strengths. I'm a big proponent of your strengths based right? So when can you do that? Maybe that might take more than 15 minutes, Lisa but it can be a very empowering exercise and you don't have to do that alone.

[00:23:29] Get feedback from your support squad, work with a coach to start identifying that.

[00:23:35] Lisa DuPree: So I love that idea. The scers audit. And the "i's", the three eyes.

[00:23:42] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: Yeah. Three eyes plus one. Yeah.

[00:23:44] Lisa DuPree: Exactly. So if you're speaking to someone that's coming to you and they really feel like stuck and unsure about their next move and they want to be intentional and they want it to align with what they want their life to be so they can really function optimally, like with their health and their wellbeing and also. You know, still be fulfilled and, make a living.

[00:24:09] What would you recommend is the first thing that they would do?

[00:24:13] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: First, let's unpack what stuck means to you, because stuck could mean sometimes people say, I feel stuck Agnes. And I'm like, well, what does that mean? And the next thing might be a lot of times is I don't feel like I'm learning and growing, or I feel like I'm at a plateau in my career.

[00:24:31] Or, you know, something like that. So even understanding that first, that self awareness piece is so key, right? Cause then it's, I think it's easier at like going to, or maybe it's easier for me because I'm a career coach, but to go straight to the technical steps, for this, but it's really the, all the feelings behind that.

[00:24:52] Especially if you compare yourself with your peers or compare yourself to where you feel like you should have done if you've taken some time off, and so I like I like thinking about Adam Grant's take on this. He has a book called hidden potential and he talks about, it's the distance that you traveled.

[00:25:11] So even doing an exercise where you list all the accomplishments that you have done that you're proud of, like maybe five to 15 accomplishments and kind of get granular about that. Like, what was it about it? Were you doing this project alone? Were you in community? Were you learning a new skill?

[00:25:28] Thinking about, like, what was it about that those point of prize that you're, we're excited about and how can you get that again? The engagement piece. And then going to the unsure part, I think, when we first started, I said it was the clarity part, Lisa, but I'm going to add one more caveat.

[00:25:45] It's people think that, well, they seem to equate clarity with certainty, and that's not always the case. I like to ask killing questions about certainty. How do you know when you're certain when you're at seven or eight at a scale of 10, what does certainty mean to you? And there are no guarantees in that.

[00:26:03] And as you know, we could have the best laid plans, right? But life doesn't always go along with that we have what Bruce Filer and his books at life is in the transitions. He talks about life quakes. And then he has a book called the search about job. And just like the search for meaning in your job, he talks about work quakes again, you can go swimmingly along with your career and everything's great, but all of a sudden there's a reorg in your team or the manager that you love is no longer there.

[00:26:37] There, there are things that are not in our control of that. So you have to get really, you have to get comfortable. Which would change and ambiguity and be like flex those, adaptivity and resiliency muscles. And that kind of goes back to no matter what stage you are in your career, whether you're starting up or if you're thinking about, scaling back or slowing down, going back to, it doesn't mean adding on, know,

[00:27:08] Lisa DuPree: Yeah, I love that you're starting with kind of that awareness, what really does stuck mean? And then what is the insured you mean? And like clarity doesn't necessarily mean certainty. So you can have clarity without certainty. I think those are Insightful and really important.

[00:27:26] Cause I'm not sure that we tend to think about things, especially when we're in the moment and in the situation, we're probably not, that's probably not our first go to thing. So I can see where working with a career coach specifically around these things can be really important.

[00:27:41] And in. just helping you get that clarity and being okay with being uncertain, but getting that self reflection and figuring out what does it really mean. Yeah.

[00:27:52] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: Lisa, I would say when I think about a particular client, one of my first private clients who was late 40s and she was she was just got through an illness about two years before she had breast cancer. And she was at a point in her career where she was really thinking about That meaning and fulfillment.

[00:28:12] And she had it like she was applying for an executive level role in her organization and she didn't get it. And so she was just like, disappointed, discouraged and everything. And then she, we worked together and she had some interviews for a nonprofit where she could be a CEO, but it was a new position, right?

[00:28:30] And she really had to ask herself, Lisa, she was like, I could do this, but in Life and career stage. Do I want to do it because I, it's the way they talk about it. It sounds like I would be the chef. I would be the cook. I would be the sous chef. I would be the front of house and I'd be the dishwasher. And I'm not, I don't have the time and energy for that, right?

[00:28:55] And so sometimes you have to come full circle and sometimes you don't know that until you try it. And so I think going back to when you're at a transition phase, we can overanalyze, overthink, over rationalize things, Lisa, but we have to start at one point taking action and doing the trial and error part.

[00:29:16] To see if that's the direction you want to go into. No one can do that for you. But you have to at one point, and we are all risk averse, including me, you have to start asking yourself like what am I protecting? What am I, not wanting to lose versus the flip side? What am I, what could I gain from this?

[00:29:40] Yes.

[00:29:42] Lisa DuPree: so true. And that goes with every opportunity for change, it's like really looking at, and this is an interesting thing to do too, is like looking at from where you are, even if you're stuck, you're not satisfied, you're unsure about what to do next. What are the benefits of staying where I am?

[00:29:59] And I think that versus what are the benefits of changing or what are the risks of staying where I am versus what are the risks of exploring something new or a different avenue or something like that. And I think that's where in, I mentioned in the last episode or a couple of episodes back about being comfortable in your uncomfortableness.

[00:30:19] it's a known, it's a known entity, and the uncomfortable in change is an unknown. So if you're gonna pick your uncomfortable, right? You can stay the same and be uncomfortable, or you can change and be uncomfortable which uncomfortable you want to go it this time.

[00:30:35] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: Lisa, I think you would appreciate this being a health coach and with health communications and everything, the different stages of change, you could talk about things, but if you're not ready to receive it, you're going to go be cyclical and you can, you just it's staying in your comfort zone.

[00:30:53] Exactly that. Yeah.

[00:30:57] Lisa DuPree: we get really comfortable in our comfort zones, even when you're uncomfortable. You re but you know what that uncomfortable is like. And especially I know like my not now being into my fifties, well into my fifties, like I know where my comfort zone are.

[00:31:10] And I know when I'm getting like, I'm pushing those growth edges, we call them in, in and I'm like, Oh, Yeah, I don't have to feel okay, like you're going to have to be uncomfortable. You're going to have to be okay with not knowing and being a beginner at something. And that's like starting, the podcast and starting some new things and doing like things differently.

[00:31:34] Like I'm just at the point now where I'm doing that. And I have to really had, have some like nice Heart to hearts with myself. I'd be like, you're really good. I'm really good at a lot things, I'm trying something completely different. And so you're gonna, you're gonna suck at it.

[00:31:50] So just do it and suck at it and be okay with it and be uncomfortable. And eventually you'll be comfortable.

[00:31:56] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: Yeah. Lisa, you said so many things there. Where first, it's we are creatures of habit, right? We do that. But also, it's I think in your mid career, midlife, you are used to being the expert at things. And so it feels very uncomfortable to maybe be at the entry level or associate level nobody wants To do that, but if it goes back to also your motivation if you see a different path for yourself, you also have to be okay with the trial and error going back to that and trying on different identities. I think that's it too. So sometimes when I talk to people who have been in a career for a very long time, and even when they leave or retire, you go through a little bit of a grieving or mourning.

[00:32:45] That was so much of your identity and sometimes people over identify with their organizations. And as much as you love your job and everything like that, you have to protect your time and energy because it won't always love you back. And there are shifting priorities for you too. I always call at least two different parts of the equation.

[00:33:11] What you bring to your work, but then also what your work Gives you, and if you're looking for more autonomy or more variety and you're not finding it where you are, I think you need to start exploring and testing things, talking to other people. I call it career creeping, Lisa. You can career creep on LinkedIn.

[00:33:36] You can have curious career conversations with others in an industry that you're curious about. That is a low risk way to figure out. If that's the direction you want, and then before a conversation, ask yourself, check in with yourself emotionally, like, how excited am I? Like one paper? What does this look like?

[00:33:56] Say you're at like a six or seven or so after talking, like after I talk with you, Lisa, maybe about health coaching. Am I more excited? Am I at a seven or eight or am I the same or not move the needle? Or maybe it's not what I thought it was, 

[00:34:11] Lisa DuPree: That's a wonderful strategy, especially if you're just not sure. And yeah, that's a really good thing to be able to do and it helps build your network, it builds your connections, it gets you information that you're not going to get from reading a job. Description or anything like that. Yeah, that is so key.

[00:34:33] That is so key. I know there are some people that I'm connected with and that I've have coached over the years that have actually done that. Searched for people that were in the jobs that they were looking for,

[00:34:44] him a message on LinkedIn and be like, Hey, would you mind, Chatting with me for 15 minutes and it's, I, it's been, it surprised me, honestly because I was like, wow, it works 

[00:34:58] and I've had people do that to me recently. There was a couple of people actually that reached out to me on LinkedIn that I didn't know. But they knew people that I knew, and it was interesting. And they're like, Hey, I've seen you're doing a transition or you're you want to be doing more of the consulting or, you've been a health coach for X number of years, and you've been in education for this many years, I'm looking to get into that area, so yeah, I'm to jump on zoom with somebody for 15 minutes and have a conversation.

[00:35:27] Yeah.

[00:35:28] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: And see, and I think at this point in my life, I feel like generativity is very important, giving back to the next generation. And, you can share any insights you have. I feel like. It also reconnects you to your why. You know what I mean? Oh yeah, I forgot about all those great things that I loved about my job that I wanna, reconnect to it gets you excited again and I think finding. Your community, I think is so important, your supportive community at this time, anytime you have a transition period, I think you can feel like you're doing this alone or like you're, you hold your cards close to you a lot, but if you don't signal that you want to change or anything how are people supposed to help you,

[00:36:17] Know, so it's, that is the edges of your comfortability, right?

[00:36:22] Lisa DuPree: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. You have given us so many things to think about and so much information, so many good tips and strategies. And so I've just, I thank you so much for doing that. I just wanted to ask you, is there one thing that you wish that I'd either asked you or That we didn't get to cover right now, or we haven't covered yet.

[00:36:47] And then what would that be? ,

[00:36:48] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: Okay. I love this question, Lisa, because it goes back to my why do I do this? I might encourage is to connect people, ideas and resources, right? And so when, what I wish you would have asked me was Agnes, why do you have such a big book problem?

[00:37:06] Lisa DuPree: you've quoted five or six books for real. I know you read so impressive how much you read.

[00:37:14] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: This about me and I have to laugh at myself because it's. Past six months, I have to tell you, Lisa, at one point I was reading Matthew Walker's Why We Sleep, so the science and neuroscience behind sleep, while I was also reading Ada Calhoun's, she was a journalist Why We Can't Sleep, and it's about and actually it might be very appropriate for your audience because it's about like midlife crisis and also about Gen X and about menopause.

[00:37:40] Lisa DuPree: Oh,

[00:37:40] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: will laugh and at least, oh my gosh. And it's funny because the two covers look alike. No, but really, I, when I am not coaching, I love to paint. I'm an amateur artist. Do these little miniature paintings. But I also love to read business psychology books.

[00:37:59] Which, my, my younger son Andrew says, mom, you love all those self help books. I'm like, Andrew, you know what self help books are? I'm like, they're a combination of Eastern and Western wisdom philosophy that is repackaged as business psychology books. And so anyway, so what I love to do is curate resources for my client.

[00:38:22] Sometimes it's customized. Some things will speak to you universally. I have all of that on my. Website in a section called curated resources. So that's my way to give back. That's my gift.

[00:38:37] Lisa DuPree: absolutely. And we will definitely put a link to Agnes's website to Career Rescripted. I'll definitely put that in the show notes that you can hop over there if that's interesting. Anything that, that she has as a resource, you can get ahold of that there. Ah, yes. 

[00:38:55] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: can I point out one really on the curated resources. I love the book flux. It's all about managing change by April. And what she talks about, like she has eight superpowers and one of them is, about knowing you're enough and she spells it with your Y O U R enough. And so it's about your values and everything.

[00:39:19] And figuring out like, what do you in this phase of your life, what do you want? And then she also talks about thinking about your career more holistically as a career portfolio. It goes back to the scurs, but it also is very empowering to not think of just a string of roles, but how are they connected?

[00:39:37] What are the themes and patterns of your career that you can really, leverage?

[00:39:43] Lisa DuPree: Wonderful. All right. what is your website URL? We'll get that out right now.

[00:39:51] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: Oh, yeah.

[00:39:51] Lisa DuPree: Then I'll put it in the show notes, but what is that?

[00:39:55] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: Yeah. It's www.careerrescripted.com. And you can contact me through my website. And then I really hope you will take a look at the curated resources. They're through all life stages. And there's a lot of things for midlife career changes as well.

[00:40:14] Lisa DuPree: Wonderful. Thank you so much. It has been a joy, as always, to chat with you, and I always, every time I talk to you or we meet up and have lunch, I always come away with at least two books that I have to read, and I gotta go look up the ones on sleep, for sure.

[00:40:34] It has been a pleasure. Fantastic to see you again. Thank you so much for everything that you've shared. Yeah, you're just fantastic. I love you.

[00:40:43] Agnes Trinh Mackintosh: Love you too, Lisa. Thank you.